MWUTT 57: Can a Christian Vote for a Socialist?

Jesus tells us to care for the poor, but does that mean Christians should support socialism? We don't think so, and we're gonna show you why. We're testing the Democratic socialists of America against scripture on poverty, government, power, and whether better systems can fix sinful people. More than a century ago, a Lutheran pastor in St. Louis warned Christians against joining unions that promoted socialism. That warning raises a question for Christian voters this November. If you oppose what a movement stands for, can you still help put it in power? Welcome to Men Who Understood the Times. So Josh, what does socialism say is wrong with the world, and why does the Bible's diagnosis go deeper?

What socialism says is wrong with the world is systems. Socialism embraces the Marxist view that all of the world, all of humanity is broken down into one of two categories, oppressor or oppressed. And kind of buried within that is actually a denial of original sin. Socialism would say that humanity is inherently perfectible if only we hem it in with enough systems. And to the extent that there's injustice in the world or inequality, the inequality means that the haves have taken from the have-nots, and it is a zero-sum game. And so wealth cannot be created, it can only be redistributed, which, which flies in the face of scripture. I think Andy might have more to say on the Marxist angle there.

Well, what socialism gets wrong is exactly what Josh said. It, it says that nurture is the problem, not nature. So human beings are by nature good, but they have been estranged not because of sin, but because of structures. And so the ultimate purpose of life for man is activism and progressivism, not to live life which glorifies God above all things and serves our neighbor.

Could I just add one thing to that? I, I think it's really important we define our terms here. And so when we say socialism, socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are predominantly socially owned and controlled through public institutions, workers, cooperatives, or other collective arrangements instead of primarily by private investors or individuals. This is in contrast to capitalism, which is an economic system in which the means of production are predominantly privately owned and controlled with production, investment, and prices largely coordinated through markets in the pursuit of profit. And so if you look at this, if you go to the parable of the talents, if you go to, was it Ananias and Sapphira? Wasn't that property yours to keep, and then you lied about it, right? Versus socialism, when you have a publicly controlled means of, of, of production... I would say it like this, capitalism is a system that is evil insofar as humans are evil, and we're part of it. However, it is the only system that bends human greed into productivity, and you, you can have a God-pleasing value of production with, with capitalism. I, I don't know that you can with socialism because socialism is inherently redistributive, which means that you're, you are, you are taking, which is indistinguishable from stealing, and stealing is definitionally wrong according to the Ten Commandments. If you take someone's labor and don't compensate them for it and give it to a person who has not worked, which is what redistribution of wealth ultimately is, um, that is the definition of theft, and the Bible calls that wrong. And so you have one system that, yeah, it exists. It has not worked in any country, and the, the argument is, "Well, it's never been tried properly," right? And so we- maybe we can explore the notion of is there any possible way that this is congruent with scripture? I, I, I would, I would say the answer is no, but I'm willing to be, uh, argued with.

Yeah, we're gonna talk about its compatibility with scripture as we move on through our, our outline today. I just wanna say one more thing before we go on to the next question, kind of what's wrong with the world. Socialists deny original sin. Andy mentioned they say it's nature, not nurture. The Bible tells us it's actually us that something's wrong with.

Just to r- have you go back on that, Zach, I said it's nurture for the socialists, not nature.

Yeah. So the problem is our sinful nature and that mankind is inherently selfish. And I, I read a CFW author writing about communism and socialism, and it's just kind of a treasure trove if, if you ever are interested in diving into this topic more in depth. But basically, he says, "Why does a Christian work? A Christian works because he's commanded by God, and he knows that God will provide for him and give him what he needs through the work." Why does the natural sinful man work? They work to, uh, benefit themselves. They, they work for selfish gain rather than as o- out of a, an obligation to God. And so just kind of looking from that framework, socialism could work if everyone was a true Christian, but the fact is, uh, we are not. Uh, Wal- Walther even says, "If any help is to come to the world, everyone must become a Christian." And that's how we'll solve the world's problems, if everyone be- became a true Christian. But that, that's not going to happen.

I think individual families can be socialist. Like, you can make the argument that my children aren't doing the same volume of work that I am, and yet they're benefiting from, from my labor, so is my wife. And so, like, we don't have the, like, my money and her money. We have our money, and we contribute to it, and it all goes into one pot. And then that's where the, the Marxist notion from whom according to his ability and, and then to whom according to their need, yeah, that, that works within the individual family. But a whole society run on that- Has never worked in any context, and we have hundreds of examples of this not working, so

Yeah, it, it works in the family because there is mutual love for each other. It cannot work in society because people don't all love everyone in their society the same way that they love their children or their parents, and they're always going to prioritize themselves and, and their family over, you know, the person living 100 miles away. And so socialism gets that idea of original sin wrong. They believe that man is inherently perfectible if they're under the right systems. And so th-they get the diagnosis wrong, but then they also get the cure wrong. Their goal is simply... You could phrase it maybe two ways. It's equality for everyone, or you could also just say happiness for everyone. Their goal is really, you know, w-we can fix the problems of the world if we could just make everyone happy. Their goal is, is really happiness on Earth-

Mm-hmm

... which is not a Christian goal. It's, it's not something the Bible tells us to pursue. We will receive our happiness and our ultimate consolation when God brings us back to His kingdom in heaven.

Mm-hmm.

And we'll be perfectly happy there. And if, if we attain any piece of happiness here on Earth, that's a gift from God. It's something to be rejoiced over, but we'll never be perfectly happy. Christians are gonna have bad days and da- days when they're sad and depressed, and that's normal and expected. We cannot, we cannot expect to ever achieve happiness on, on such a scale for so many people. That is a complete... Walther calls it a phantom.

Jesus never promises happiness. In John 16:33, He offers peace, but also says, "No, in this world you will have trouble, but take heart. I've overcome the world." And He prefaces that by saying, "I tell you this so that in me you may find peace." Peace and happiness are not the same thing. I, I would argue that you cannot ameliorate human suffering on this side of eternity. I, I have watched cancer death. Happy is not the right word for that, but peace, I've seen that. I, I watched my mother and father die in peace. Not happy, but in peace. And so what Jesus offers is way better than what Satan's offering you through socialism.

Yeah. And so, you know, to reach those ends of equality or happiness for all people, socialism wants to redistribute. They want to take from those who have more to give it to those who have less, level the playing field, and now everyone can be happy. Walther also makes the point that happiness isn't brought to everyone in the same way. What makes one person happy isn't gonna make another person happy. So if they're-

Mm-hmm